Tenergy 05 Table Tennis Blogs

Well, I obviously like Tenergy b/c I have been using it for 2+ years approx. However, I do feel that the concept of "spring sponge" may be in conflict with extended dwell time. I agree that the FX version may the solution for my game so I can't wait to try. Wondering if any others out there have found looping/slow slow looping "heavy" underspin tricky with Tenergy due to the tacky top sheet and/or spingy sponge? Thanks again.

"However, I do feel that the concept of "spring sponge" may be in conflict with extended dwell time."
Unless the spring is very hard it should allow for longer dwell time.

"Wondering if any others out there have found looping/slow slow looping "heavy" underspin tricky with Tenergy due to the tacky top sheet and/or spingy sponge?"
Yes, I have and other have admitted to it. Looping back spin requires speed and a very fine touch. You need to put as much or more top spin on the ball as it has back spin to keep the ball from diving into the net.

but just as spiny. I agree that a less spiny rubber would not be as adversely affected by the choppers but then you give up the ability to attack with the loop. I would consider a rubber/blade that is 'slower' but has a higher spin to 'speed' ratio.

The problem I have with looping back spin is probably the same that you have. If I apply too much topspin I tend to hit the ball forward too fast and it goes over the table if it doesn't hit the net. I need to just brush the ball to add top spin without hitting the ball too hard which takes a fine touch which I don't have in a consistent way...yet. A 'slower' rubber will allow you and me to hit the ball with plenty of topspin not be as prone to hitting the ball off the far end of the table. I am happy with T05 on my back hand. I too am looking for something else on my fore hand that is 'slower' but I will not give up spin.

Note, I don't like the terms 'speed','fast' or 'slow'. Rubbers or blades are not fast or slow. People are. Coefficient Of Restitution, COR, or efficiency are valid terms that can be measured and quantified. Look these terms up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
Rubbers and blades are fast when I throw them across the room, fast.

Brakj. Yes – agreed. Precisely my point. I think sometimes we all get juiced up to try the fastest, most hi-tech equipment (blades, rubber etc) because i) it’s there for us to try and ii) we see the pros use and endorse it. So like your Roger F example it can actually degrade our game. BTW – tennis was my main sport as well through the college years. I am just picking up the big racket again b/c my wife and kids are playing. Having fun with it but it’s not the best combination with table tennis. Convincing myself it’s just a mental thing but the two don’t mix that well together.

Back to pong - now, I am not saying this is the fact with Tenergy (yet) because it’s been too long for me even to remember the “other” rubbers and Tenergy was the first Tensor rubber I ever tried….and then I stuck with it. BTW – I use a Michael Maze blade – medium spin and speed in my opinion. I used to use a faster blade but gave it up. The switch back to Michael Maze has been a good move when coupled with the Tensor and Spring sponge products. I could slow it down even more by going to a Primorac – but not ready for that move yet.

News since last entry – just ordered G3 for the forehand and G3FX for the backhand. Will report back next month on how it’s going. I do plan to play a tourney or two since performance under some pressure is a good measure b/c, you know, things can get a bit tighter in a real match!

within reason. I have no experience with long pips or anti.

"I think it has to do with the spin speed ratio being slightly more geared towards speed than T05 or Hammond Pro Beta."
How would you explain that?

As long as the tangential speed of the paddle matches the tangential speed of the contact surface of the ball there is no net force up or down and the rubber will not make a difference. If the paddle's tangential speed is too low the ball will push on the paddle and go low. If the paddle moves faster then the ball will return higher. The friction of the paddle just changes the degree of force up or down. Last week I thought I did a pretty good job return a very good chopper's chops with 1.5mm Mark V. Mark V isn't a hot rubber. I don't think it makes much difference what rubber I use. Matching the tangential speeds of the ball and paddle doesn't depend on the rubber. The technique will be the same. It is just a matter of degree and the difference shouldn't be much that you can't adapt to.

Some super points here I wonder if any of you guys would care to "draw" a visual picture. I find visuals often aid things like this. I will see if I can draw a quick one in a program.

Other things of interest are the difference between tacky and grippy ping pong rubber.  The tacky can pick up a ball just by the surface where as the grippy needs to go deep into the sponge.  For consistancy the grippy is best since the tack or stickiness changes as dust or humidity changes the surface stroke by stroke point by point.  The player needs to constantly clean the rubber.

You really need an animation to see what I am referring to. Also there is a standard deviation involved with this issue relative to the angle, force of impact, pip design and, blade, sponge, rubber hardness / friction coefficient. Not much buckling happens at lower speeds but when looping the other parts of the rubber and blade get involved and change the dynamics. Cornilleau has a patented pip layout that they discuss here to supposedly reduce waving:

http://www.cornilleau-competition.com/EN/michelin.html

Personally I think that there are optimal pip layouts for particular styles... Like Tenergy 64 and mid distance looping. I don't think there is any difference in T64's friction coefficient compared to T05's nor is there much spring sponge difference... so it really leaves it up to how the pips are engaged when looping. Also some pip layouts should end up being more effiecnt for certain sponge densities... which could explain why Boz does not like T05 FX :)

The loss and gain of angular acceleration and energy really depends on your personal looping style... things like your swing arc and how much side spin you apply and where you typically impact the ball realtive to it's spin axis. All of which changes from day to day due to a ton of variables like who you're playing and their style (and how you're playing). Quite a lot of physics invloved really!

"I would explain it relative to hitting with short pips where the pips don't generate much spin but do allow for speed. It has nothing to do with the technique employed other than the fact that you can hit through underpin much more easily with pips due to this factor. "
Agreed, but that is because the short pips don't have the friction that would cause the ball to go up or down if there is a speed mis match. I am relatively ancient. I learned to play with 38 mm balls and hard bat so I understand. Still the basic technique is still the same. The paddle's tangential velocity should match the balls rotational velocity. Otherwise there will be a net force but on short pips it will not be as great.

"T64 is still spinny but it is faster than what I am used to on my backhand. Consequently it is easier for me to loop through underspin instead of having to make more of a vertical stoke."
Yes, I believe you. However, you still must swing the paddle so the paddles's tangential velocity is the same or greater than than the ball's tangential velocity or the ball will push against the paddle and dive into the net. This is basic physics, it Newton's third law in action. In your case you must be moving the paddle so that the tangential velocity of the paddle is much greater than that of the ball so that you add spin and therefore to the Magnus effect that makes the ball drop. The force that adds spin also causes the higher 'throw'. The spin and the higher 'throw' allow you to close the paddle a bit so is just clears the net. The spin will make sure the ball drops quickly which is good for angle shots that must drop quickly behind the net.

"For instance it is rare to catch a ball at the same angle that it rotates so some energy is disovled at the precession at impact."
Your meaning is not clear. Angles and rotational speeds are two different things.

" Also, all rubbers have a friction coeffeient which only gets more dynamic when you factor in the sponge, pip configuration impact angle and force applied."
Yes, I am glad to see you realize this as opposed to debating whether the rubber is 'tacky' or 'grippy'. The coefficient of friction is a percentage of the normal or perpendicular force.

"Quite often based on the pip layout there is slippage that occours, or "waving" due to the pips buckling at impact (depending on the impact angle) This can cause overpressure at the areas where the topsheet has pips underneith it and underpresusre in areas where there is no pips."
Obviously there must always be some give. Nothing can change direction instantaneously and you get points for realizing this. I doubt the 'dwell time' is more than a few milliseconds. This is easy enough to calculate a rough estimation.

Pressure is force/surface area.
Over pressure I assume is simply pressure.
What is under pressure? Normally I would associate that with a vacuum. I don't see where there is a vacuum. Explain please.

I think the whole matter is very simple. I watch the person applying the back spin and how fast he hits the ball. I know the ball's spin will slow down a bit by the time it gets to me but I try to hit it with the same speed of top spin as the chopper applied back spin. This way I know I am roughly matching the ball's rotational speed with my paddle's tangential speed and if I need a loop I add a little more paddle tangential speed. I have done this with my two paddles. With the Mark V and T05. The technique is the same. If I hit the ball with a higher tangential speed than the balls rotational speed the result are the same with the two rubbers. If I hit the ball with a higher paddle rotational speed than the ball's rotational speed the result is that I get a slightly higher throw and spin with the T05 over the Mark V, It isn't much different. The pros may need to eek out every last bit of performance. Perhaps a little more spin or higher C.O.R makes a big difference to them but I am still trying to get the ball back on the table most of the time.

bloody hell...we have 2 maths gurus's present :-)

here is my opinion on pips and tenergy05 for what its worth (little i know) im trying to forget i ever hit topspin with my forehand and simply hit through with a flat motion on my standard short pips, i still find looping underspin harder than it should be and harder again when i use 05 BUT it offers so much im going to stick with it on my backhand. I might give 64 a go though as it sounds easier to loop with . Whats your thoughts on that Boz?

Lol we're about to get in to some really deep physics here but since we both played 38mm balls we're probably good haha!!!

quote:

'Yes, I believe you. However, you still must swing the paddle so the paddles's tangential velocity is the same or greater than than the ball's tangential velocity or the ball will push against the paddle and dive into the net. This is basic physics, it Newton's third law in action. In your case you must be moving the paddle so that the tangential velocity of the paddle is much greater than that of the ball so that you add spin and therefore to the Magnus effect that makes the ball drop. The force that adds spin also causes the higher 'throw'. The spin and the higher 'throw' allow you to close the paddle a bit so is just clears the net. The spin will make sure the ball drops quickly which is good for angle shots that must drop quickly behind the net. "For instance it is rare to catch a ball at the same angle that it rotates so some energy is disovled at the precession at impact." Your meaning is not clear. Angles and rotational speeds are two different things.'

I'm just referring to angular acceleration here when I say angle but what I mean is when you have spin coming at you and you loop it back rarely does it come to you rotating perfectly at a right angle nor once you hit it does it leave at that same right angle. Mainly the reason for that is we basically swing on a 3 dimensional axis (very simplified mechanics) that is constantly accelerating / decelerating in 3d space. Impact, however fast, still has several points of influence. This complicates things significantly if we dare break this down to physics and mathematics. For instance we actually need to at least match, not the actual speed the ball rotates at, but really the speed the ball rotates at the point of impact realtive to the axis. In other words if we impact the ball at a place slightly to the right of the place where the ball rotates the speed at which the ball rotates there is less due to the smaller diameter. Also the force (and direction) at which the ball will grab the topsheet is less also because we are not engaging the full axis - for example if we if we hit the ball on one of it's poles it would not grab at all because the spin is not spinning in a way that it can gain traction... just as if we were to spin the ball on top of our paddle. This is a trick a lot of loopers use to cancel out spin and apply more drive to the ball. (There is a link out there where a Chinese coach explains this but I can not find it yet.) But even if you do not use this technique deliberately you still rarely hit the same tangent. That slight angle that you miss the ball at also causes precession to occur at impact while you change the ball's axis to the one you're applying to it as you loop. That precession also causes loss of energy. The ball has a completely different torque applied to it and spins out at the final axis that really is the mean of whatever all of those forces applied to it create. (Since impact is not a single point but more of a grip, torque and release action)

quote:

'Pressure is force/surface area. Over pressure I assume is simply pressure. What is under pressure? Normally I would associate that with a vacuum. I don't see where there is a vacuum. Explain please.'

By under pressure I just mean places that do not apply the same amount of grip to the ball... to simplify I'll use short pips again where the ball has several points of contact but losses points of contact also. That net loss results in less grip and "over pressure" on the pips... which makes it entirely dependent on the pips to produce any spin. Which is one big reason why pips produce less spin. The same thing happens to a lesser extent with inverted however. More pressure, which applies more grip, happens over the pips and "under pressure" happens where there are none. Increase that pressure though and you can increase the amount of spin.

But anyway back to my illustration consider golfing... the driver creates less spin but applies more direct force to the ball the ball goes further and balloons up a bit on it's trip. The same swing with a higher lofted driver creates more spin and less direct force which creates less distance but more spin. Now a pitching wedge creates a ton of spin but little distance with the same swing. I view T64 as an 8 degree driver when looping verse T05 which might be a 11 degree driver. T05 has more spin but less speed. That ratio change creates longer trajectories for topspin rallies. It also helps me loop underspin a bit easier which the final result means I can apply more drive to my loops and worry less about underspin.

Don't you have a pictures somewhere that shows the pips are indeed a little different on FX? As for the sheet, if it's free I'll be glad to review :)

Ah never mind.. to rich for my blood...

I wish I bought 2.0 or max Mark V and Scramble but I am learning how make the 1.5mm work. See these again
http://www.deltamotion.com/peter/TableTennis/Testing%20Rubber%20Concept.mp4
http://www.deltamotion.com/peter/TableTennis/More%20Rubber%20Testing.MP4
There is a difference between the T05 and the Mark V but not that great. Certainly not 30% .
I have learned to loop back chops with the 1.5mm Mark V and Scramble.
Consider my "Ball Whacker" analogous to a bigger surf board to learn on.
It is easier to get more speed and spin in the shots with the T05 if I can keep the ball on the table.

I assume you are talking about JUIC 999 Elite Ultima SV. I think the Paddle Palace has a bias towards JUIC rubbers. This rubber is rated as having as much spin and much more control than than T05. This rubber has caught my eye too as a less expensive alternative to T05. I don't need the speed of the T05 but I want the spin. Even if the spin is a little less than the T05 it would still be a good buy. ( Boz gags because it is BTY and has soft sponge )

I need to get a vice to conduct these test with any meaning. In the second video there is a place where you can see the ball hitting my paddle and how much the ball pushes the paddle in my hand. This needs to be factored out. These videos are not a good comparison between the T05 and Mark V. The T05 is on a TBS and that paddle weighs 22 grams more and isn't as affected by the ball impacts. The TBS makes the T05 look better in comparison.

Thaidog, I am glad you appreciate what I am trying to do in the videos. I didn't get any comments on the mytt forum when I posted links to these videos.

Other rubbers I am interested in.
Accuda S1 because it has hard rubber. I haven't played with a hard rubber.
Baracuda
Maybe Desto Big Slam
Genius
Nimbus Sound
Narucross GS super soft
DHS H3 Neo I haven't tried a tacky Chinese rubber. This is relatively cheap.
I got my current Samsonov Alpha as a test paddle. I bought it with a straight handle so I could fit it in a vice but now I kind of like it. I think I will need to buy another.